@JustBob Discord has completely warped the term "server" for entire generations of Internet users. On Discord, "server" means "chatroom".

In the Fediverse, "server" doesn't mean "chatroom". It means "server". A computer.

For example, a rack computer with no screen and no keyboard and no mouse bolted into a server rack at a data centre.

Or an old laptop that someone had lying around or a Raspberry Pi mini-computer running at someone's home, connected to their landline.

On each one of these, a big or small Twitter can be running (Mastodon).

Or a wholly different Twitter (Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, Sharkey, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko...).

(Here's the first important new thing for you to learn about the Fediverse: The Fediverse is not only Mastodon.)

Or a Facebook with a side of a blog and a cloud server (Friendica, (streams), Forte).

(Here's the second important new thing for you to learn about the Fediverse: The Fediverse is not only short-form microblogging. Look at this comment. Look at what I've done. Embedded links. Bold type. Impossible on Mastodon. But possible elsewhere in the Fediverse.)

Or a Facebook meets WordPress meets Google Cloud Services meets even more stuff on top (Hubzilla; this is where I am).

Or an Instagram (Pixelfed).

Or a YouTube (PeerTube).

Or a Twitch (Owncast).

Or a Reddit (Lemmy, /kbin, Mbin, PieFed).

Or a Goodreads (BookWyrm).

Or whatever. There are over 150 different server applications in the Fediverse.

mastodon.social, where you are, is only one of over 10,000 big and small Twitters of the same kind (Mastodon).

If Mastodon was like Discord, all 10,000+ Mastodon servers would run in one and the same gigantic data centre in the USA, owned by Mastodon, Inc. And they would all be property of Mastodon, Inc.

If the Fediverse was like Discord, all 30,000+ Fediverse servers would run in one and the same gigantic data centre in the USA, owned by Mastodon, Inc. And they would all be property of Mastodon, Inc. Also, they would be fully identical in functionality.

But as I've said above: They're all running on their own separate machines. With their own separate owners.

And the different server applications have different developers, and they are being developed independently from one another.

Okay, now comes the kicker: These server applications are not walled up against one another. Not only are all instances of the same server applications (e.g. Mastodon) connected to each other, but all instances of one server application are also connected to all instances of all the other server applications.

Imagine you're on Twitter. But your new friend is on Facebook. You can't follow a Facebook user on Twitter, and you can't follow a Twitter user on Facebook.

In the Fediverse, you can. You can be on Twitter. And follow a Facebook user. Directly from Twitter. Without a Facebook account.

Only that they aren't named Twitter and Facebook in the Fediverse. Twitter is named Mastodon or Pleroma or Akkoma or Misskey or Calckey or Firefish or Iceshrimp or Sharkey or Catodon or... There are dozens of Twitter alternatives in the Fediverse. Well, and Facebook is named Friendica or Hubzilla or (streams) or Forte.

You can be on Mastodon. And you can follow Friendica accounts. From Mastodon. Without a Friendica account.

This comment is a very good example. You are on Mastodon, created by @Eugen Rochko in 2016 as an alternative to Twitter that aimed to be as close to Twitter as possible.

The server that you're on, mastodon.social, is owned by Mastodon, Inc. and running on one or multiple rack servers in San Francisco, California, USA owned by Fastly.

I am on Hubzilla, created by @Mike Macgirvin in 2012 by forking his own Friendica from 2010, and currently mainly maintained by @Mario Vavti and @Harald Eilertsen. Hubzilla has got nothing to do with Mastodon whatsoever. It started out as an alternative to Facebook, but not a clone, rather better than Facebook, with full-blown long-form blogging capability and a built-in file storage, and it has been enhanced greatly in functionality even beyond that.

The server that I'm on, Netzgemeinde, is owned and administered by @Mark Nowiasz, who has no affiliation with the Hubzilla developers, and running on a rack server in Nuremberg, Germany owned by Netcup.

And yet, you can see this comment coming from Hubzilla on Mastodon.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Server #Instance #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Sharkey #Catodon #Meisskey #Tanukey #Neko #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Pixelfed #PeerTube #Owncast #Lemmy #/kbin #Mbin #PieFed #BookWyrm #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse

@Ben Royce If you want to max out user safety in the Fediverse, do not place all your bets on Mastodon!

Again: The Fediverse is not only Mastodon. The Fediverse isn't Mastodon with stuff bolted onto Mastodon either.

There's a whole lot of stuff in the Fediverse that's developed fully independently from Mastodon. There's stuff that's older than Mastodon. There's stuff that's a whole lot different from Mastodon. And "different" doesn't mean "wrong". Mastodon is not the Fediverse's quality standard. No, really, it isn't.

One issue that you've mentioned are reply guys. What you seem to be looking for is a technological barrier that's absolute, 100% water-tight safety from reply-guying.

This means that you'll have to go with Mastodon's re-definition of a reply guy: anyone who replies to you without being mutually connected to you, and without having been mentioned by you in the post which that person replies to. Because by Mastodon's standards, it shouldn't even be possible for such a post to show up on your timeline.

But, again, the Fediverse is not only Mastodon. Nor does the Fediverse in its entirety work like Mastodon. Especially in this regard. Not everything in the Fediverse tries to mimic Twitter.

For example, Friendica. Friendica is a Facebook alternative that was launched in 2010. And when Mastodon was launched, it immediately federated itself with a Friendica which, at that point, was five and a half years old and had its own living, breathing culture based on its own technology. Which is vastly different from Mastodon.

Friendica doesn't think in single posts loosely tied together. Friendica thinks in full conversations. Whereas Mastodon doesn't even know what a conversation is.

And: On Friendica, if you receive a post, you receive the whole thread. With all comments.

Let's suppose you follow Alice. Alice sends a post. Bob comments on the post. Carol comments on the post. But Bob and Carol don't mention you, and you don't follow them.

On Mastodon, you only see Alice's post.

On Friendica, you see Alice's post, Bob's comment and Carol's comment. With no following, with no mentions. Because you've received Alice's post, you also receive all comments.

This is not a bug. This is absolutely intentional. For this is how Facebook works which Friendica aims to replace. It has always been this way. And it's deeply engrained in Friendica's culture.

This also means that anyone on Friendica can and does comment on comments by people who haven't mentioned them and whom they don't follow, just because these people have commented on something someone wrote whom these Friendica users follow.

Oh, and by the way: Hubzilla, a fork of Friendica by Friendica's creator from 2015, works the same. (streams), a fork of a fork of three forks of a fork (of a fork?) of Hubzilla by Friendica's and Hubzilla's creator from 2021, works the same. Forte, a fork of (streams) by still the same creator from this year, works the same.

They're all part of the Fediverse, and they're all federated with Mastodon. I'm writing to you from Hubzilla right now.

In fact, Pleroma and its various forks, particularly Akkoma, knows conversations, too. Misskey and its many forks, including but not limited to Calckey/Firefish, Sharkey, CherryPick, Iceshrimp, Catodon, Neko, Meisskey, Tanukey etc., all know conversations. Again, they're all part of the Fediverse, and they're all federated with Mastodon.

So first of all, we have a difference in culture based on a difference in technology and use-case.

Of course, the natural reaction of many Mastodon users would be to put the proverbial gun against the chests of everything that isn't Mastodon and try to force it to become another Mastodon and ditch up to 90% of its features because Mastodon doesn't have them, and to force everyone who isn't on Mastodon to use whatever they have exactly like Mastodon. Believe me, I know people to whom this has actually happened. I could mention them.

You can try. But you can't expect it to work. No, seriously, you can't.

As for a technological barrier: If you want it installed on Mastodon, it won't work. Not with a Fediverse that isn't entirely Mastodon.

It might work with a proper permissions system like on Hubzilla or (streams) or Forte, and even that only if it was made into an FEP, a quasi-standard, and all the Fediverse adopted this system in fully compatible ways. And even that would only give you the power to define

• whether people may generally comment on your posts, or whether nobody or only a select few may
• who of your connections may comment on your posts
• if it's more like Hubzilla, whether or not anyone is permitted to comment on the post that you're just writing

Properly implemented, this permissions system actually removes the controls for commenting from your Web UI if you aren't permitted to comment.

This, however, means:

• The permissions system does not distinguish between people whom you've mentioned and people whom you haven't mentioned. Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte don't rely on mentions.
• You can only define whether someone may reply to your posts. As in anything that isn't a reply. Replies aren't posts in this system. They're comments. Whether someone may reply to your comments is defined by whoever sent the post that you've just commented on. They own the whole conversation. They define all permissions in the conversation. And since you could comment on that post, probably anyone can, otherwise you couldn't either.

Speaking of permissions: If you want safety, ditch that underwhelming, intentionally lack-lustre and hopelessly outdated kluge that's Mastodon and look elsewhere in the Fediverse where the real innovations are made.

Imagine you, as a user, could generally define

• who is allowed to see your personal timeline and your toots
• who is allowed to send you their toots
• who is allowed to fave and reply to your toots
• who is allowed to send you DMs
• who is allowed to see your profile
• who is allowed to see your followers and followed
• who is allowed to boost and quote-toot your toots

Yeah, I know, Mastodon has a few of these. But Mastodon doesn't have them all.

Also, Mastodon only has everybody and nobody as options. Now imagine you can generally grant any permission to

• everyone on the Internet (only where this is possible and makes sense)
• everyone in the Fediverse
• everyone on Hubzilla
• everyone on this instance
• everyone who wants to follow you or whom you follow (there's no "who follows you")
• everyone whom you follow
• only those whom you follow whom you explicitly grant that permission
• only you yourself

Yes, "whom you explicitly grant that permission". Imagine you can grant permissions individually to certain contacts and not to other contacts.

Imagine you can be mutually connected with Alice, but still keep Alice from sending you her toots. Imagine you can disallow Alice and Bob, both mutual connections of yours, to see your profile, but you can allow Carol to see it.

Science-fiction? No.

This has been reality on Hubzilla since 2012, for a dozen years, almost four years longer than Mastodon has been around. Permissions are everything on Hubzilla.

This is not experimental. This is rock-solid technology, daily-driven by thousands of Fediverse users. This is technology available in the Fediverse right now.

(streams) and Forte have a similar, compatible permissions system, only that the controls are different, and a few permissions are different. They have an additional permission setting for searching your posts, and they even let you allow or disallow individual contacts to send you boosts. Also, the only general, channel-wide permissions levels they have are

• everyone on the Internet
• everyone in the Fediverse
• those whom you follow (and even then only if you explicitly grant this permission to them individually)
• nobody except you

That said, these permissions have their limitations outside the Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte ecosystem. They can keep certain unwanted things out, but they can't keep them from happening.

For example, let's suppose you're on (streams), and you only let certain people comment on your posts. If someone is on Hubzilla or (streams) and receives one of your posts, and that someone isn't permitted to comment on it, certain UI elements for replying are removed for them, and so they can't reply.

But neither Hubzilla nor (streams) nor Forte can make UI elements disappear on Mastodon or on Misskey or on Iceshrimp or on Akkoma or elsewhere. In other words, a Mastodon user can still reply to you. You'll never receive that reply. If you're the only recipient of that reply on your instance, the whole instance rejects the reply. But still, that reply is made and sent. At the very least, it ends up on the replier's timeline and the local timeline of their Mastodon instance.

There's only one way for the Fediverse to become significantly safer: This kind of permissions system must be turned into an FEP, and it must remain fully compatible with the existing implementations. And the whole Fediverse, vanilla Mastodon included, must implement it to its full extent.

Yes, this makes the Fediverse harder to use.

But seriously, you can't expect your real-life home to be safer than Fort Knox while you're still able to walk in and out anytime without even having to open one single door.

CC: @obscurestar

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

@tom Auf gar keinen Fall sollte man den Leuten beim Onboarding ins Gesicht lügen, daß das Fediverse ausdrücklich Mastodon, nur Mastodon und nichts als Mastodon ist. Auch nicht der Einfachheit halber.

Es gibt jetzt schon zuviele Leute auf Mastodon, die der felsenfesten Überzeugung sind, daß das Fediverse nur Mastodon ist. Das Harmloseste ist noch, wenn sie für "das Fediverse" Features fordern, die das Fediverse schon fünfeinhalb Jahre länger hat, als es Mastodon überhaupt gibt.

Wenn sie zu lange glauben, das Fediverse ist nur Mastodon, gewöhnen sie sich auch dran. Das Fediverse, das ist für sie ihr liebes, nettes, flauschiges Wollmammut und sonst nichts. So, und wenn dann aber ein Post oder Kommentar daherkommt wie der hier, der aber sowas von nicht von Mastodon ist, dann kacken sie vor Schreck über das, was so nie hätte passieren können, Ziegelsteine in die Hose und gehen in eine Abwehrstarre über.

Ähnlich dramatisch kann es enden, wenn man versucht, ihnen zu erklären, daß das Fediverse nicht nur Mastodon ist. Egal, ob sie sich gerade über einen Über-500-Zeichen-"Tröt" von einer "gehackten Mastodon-Instanz" aufregen. Egal, ob sie fälschlicherweise direktweg behaupten, das Fediverse und Mastodon seien dasselbe. Egal, ob sie der absolut felsenfesten Überzeugung sind, im Fediverse gibt's keine Quote-Posts (doch, die gibt's, die gibt's auch schon fünfeinhalb Jahre länger als Mastodon). Mitunter wird man erst angeschnauzt und dann blockiert. Das wollen diese Leute nicht hören. Die wollen, daß das Fediverse nur Mastodon ist.

Frag mal @jakob . Der ist auf Friendica, das eben schon fünfeinhalb Jahre lter ist als Mastodon. Der hat mal einer Mastodon-Nutzerin mit mehr als 500 Zeichen geantwortet. Die hat sich über seinen viel zu langen "Tröt" aufgeregt und, ich meine, auch über seine angeblich manipulierte Mastodon-Instanz.

Er mußte ihr dann erst erklären: Nein, er ist nicht auf Mastodon. Er ist auf Friendica. Nein, Friendica ist keine Mastodon-Instanz. Friendica ist ein komplett eigenständiges Produkt. Ja, es ist mit Mastodon verbunden. Ja, das ist normal. Nein, das Fediverse ist nicht nur Mastodon.

Das endete dann damit, daß sie ihn blockiert hat, weil er in ihren Augen ein böser Black-Hat-Hacker ist, der sich mit seinem bösen Black-Hat-Hackertool Friendica illegalerweise ins Mastodon-Fediverse reingehackt hat. Kein Witz, das ist so passiert. Frag ihn.

Überhaupt regt sich die "Fediverse = Mastodon"-Fraktion schnell auf, wenn man etwas macht, was entweder auf Mastodon technisch nicht möglich ist oder gemäß Mastodon-Kultur verpönt oder beides. Diese Leute wollen die Mastodon-Kultur im ganzen Fediverse durchsetzen, und zwar mit aller Gewalt und gegen alle Widerstände.

Als Hubzilla-Nutzer bin ich dann immer in Erklärungsnotstand. Hubzilla ist keine Mastodon-Instanz. Es funktioniert komplett anders als Mastodon. "Die" haben das anders gemacht als Mastodon, weil "die" es vor Mastodon gemacht haben. Hubzilla ist zehn Monate älter als Mastodon und basiert auf einem Fork von Friendica, das fünfeinhalb Jahre älter als Mastodon ist. Das Fediverse ist also nicht nur nicht nur Mastodon, sondern es wurde auch nicht mit Mastodon erfunden.

Trotzdem wird man dazu gezwungen,

• seine "Tröts" auf maximal 500 Zeichen zu beschränken, auch wenn man noch nie irgendein Zeichenlimit hatte, und längere "Tröts" in Threads aufzubrechen (der Friendica-Nutzer @Matthias wird dich für genau dieses Verhalten übrigens blockieren)
• keinerlei Textformatierung zu verwenden, weil das stört
• nicht nur CWs wie bei Mastodon zu verwenden, auch wenn Mastodons CW-Feld auf Hubzilla schon länger ein Zusammenfassungsfeld ist, als es auf Mastodon ein CW-Feld ist, sondern gefälligst das "CW-Feld" nur für CWs zu verwenden und nicht für Zusammenfassungen (übrigens kann ich bei Antworten keine CWs anfügen)
• nicht mehr als vier Hashtags zu verwenden, scheißegal, ob Hubzilla selbst die braucht, um seine eigenen automatisierten leserseitigen CWs zu generieren

Mit anderen Worten: Man hat als Hubzilla-Nutzer gefälligst die eigene Kultur, die älter ist als die von Mastodon, aufzugeben, sich ausschließlich die Mastodon-Kultur zu eigen zu machen und auf die Verwendung von locker 90% der Features von Hubzilla für immer zu verzichten.

Noch was: Ich weiß nicht, ob du schon davon gehört hast, aber Mastodon will ja Quote-Posts einführen. Da gab es vor geraumer Zeit einen Feature Request auf GitHub. Aber die Anfragerin wollte dazu noch zwei Dinge. Zum einen einen Opt-in-Schalter, mit dem man erst quotepostbar wird. So eine Funktion wird aber von ActivityPub nicht unterstützt, das wäre also ein proprietäres Non-Standard-Feature, das nur Mastodon hätte. Und sie forderte eine Regel für alle Mastodon-Instanzen, daß Instanzen, die sich an den Opt-in nicht halten, gefediblockt werden sollen.

Aus "Mastodon = Fediverse"-Sicht klingt das erstmal gut, oder? Was soll daran schon schlimm sein?

Wie ich schon schrieb: Das Fediverse hat Quote-Posts jetzt schon. Mastodon hat sie nicht, aber das Fediverse hat sie. Stand damals gab es Quote-Posts unter anderem auf Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Firefish, Sharkey, CherryPick, allen anderen Misskey-Forks, Mitra, Friendica, Hubzilla und (streams). Die waren alle damals schon im Fediverse, die waren alle damals schon mit Mastodon föderiert, und somit konnten die alle damals schon ohne große Probleme Mastodon-Tröts quote-posten.

Wenn aber Mastodon so ein Opt-in-Eigengezücht einführt, dann haben die das nicht automatisch auch alle. Noch einmal: Mastodon wird sich dabei an keine Standards halten, weil es dafür keinen Standard gibt. Das bedeutet: Stand heute wären alle, aber auch wirklich alle Instanzen von Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Firefish, Sharkey, CherryPick, Iceshrimp, Catodon, allen anderen Misskey-Forks, Mitra, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) und Forte problemlos in der Lage, Mastodon-Tröts auch dann zu quote-posten, wenn der Opt-in-Schalter aus ist.

Wenn also auch die Regel dazukäme, müßten alle Mastodon-Instanzen mit sofortiger Wirkung alle Instanzen von Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Firefish, Sharkey, CherryPick, allen anderen Misskey-Forks, Mitra, Friendica, Hubzilla und (streams) fediblocken. Nur weil da eine Regel durchgedrückt wurde von jemandem, der nicht mal damit rechnet, daß es im Fediverse noch etwas anderes als Mastodon geben könnte.

CC: @6erriet mit ie #FuckAfD @Sofasophia

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #NichtNurMastodon

@Jürgen Hubert There's hardly anything else that tries to get people on board by trying to pretend it's a monolithic silo like Mastodon.

As far as contact discovery goes, that point goes to the actual social networking server apps in the Fediverse, the Facebook alternatives, rather than the microblogging server apps that are being misused as social networks. I think 𝕏 doesn't suggest potential new contacts to you, and Mastodon definitely doesn't. But Facebook does, and so do Friendica and the rest of its family (Hubzilla, (streams), Forte). (streams) could be the king of this because it can find both all kinds of ActivityPub actors (unlike Hubzilla) and actors using the nomadic protocols on which Hubzilla and (streams) itself are based (unlike Friendica), if only it had more and especially larger public instances.

By the way, only a week ago, I wrote an article about this.

Also, all four are better equipped for finding your own kind of people. You don't need instances for specific target audiences which newbies will almost never hear of. You don't have to fumble around with hashtags, not even knowing what the "right" hashtag for a certain topic is.

That's because all four have native built-in support for discussion groups. Pretty much all the Fediverse can connect to these groups, but it's here where these groups are at home, and Mastodon doesn't even understand the concept of groups. Not to mention that, unlike Guppe groups, these groups can be moderated. And at least on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, they can be fully private so that non-members can't look inside and even hidden from public directories.

As far as moderation goes, especially Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte are geared towards self-moderation. They have extensive permissions systems on three levels (per channel, per contact, per post). In combination with their understanding and system of conversations (which Mastodon completely lacks as well), you can moderate your own threads and even delete offending comments. Unfortunately, you can't have them purged from the whole Fediverse.

Also, the reliance on self-moderation means that neither of the three has a Report button or even only a report system built in, so they don't understand Mastodon's report system either. If you need to report something to one of the instance admins, you'll have to send them a DM. Most public Hubzilla hubs only reveal who the admins are in the JSON-formatted siteinfo. On (streams) and Forte, you'll have to go to the directory, have only local channels shown, sort them by age and guess which of the oldest actually local channels are admins.

That said, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte have much more radical methods at hand for keeping unwanted stuff out than Mastodon. Most Fediverse server applications allow for admins to block entire instances, many, (streams) and Forte included, even give users this power. But (streams) and Forte have received a new feature called "user agent filter" in September which is capable of blocking entire Fediverse projects on a per-instance level. It was mainly designed as a more advanced counter-measure against Threads, but it can just as well be used to lock out the entirety of Mastodon, Glitch included, or the entirety of Pleroma, for example. It can even operate on an allowlist which, in addition to (streams)/Forte's own instances, only allows certain other server apps.

And since Hubzilla and (streams) both aren't based on ActivityPub, and ActivityPub is optional on both, they can theoretically completely raise the drawbridge and cut everything based on ActivityPub off in one fell swoop. In this case, they can only interact with each other, and Hubzilla can also optionally interact with diaspora* and Friendica via the diaspora* protocol. In fact, I know one (streams) group where ActivityPub was deactivated with the very intention to keep Mastodon out.

The main issue of all four has to be UX. None of the four has an official iOS and/or Android app. Friendica is from 2010 and designed for standard desktop browsers, and the others are the only survivors of a long family of forks. They can all be set up as progressive Web apps, but nobody knows what that even is, much less how to do that. Also, people need something with the same name as the server application that they can install from the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store.

Friendica is the only one of the four with third-party apps with a native mobile UI. Even then, there's exactly one app readily available in the Apple App Store and the Google Play Store, RaccoonForFriendica, and it's so brand-new that it has only just had its first "stable" release (version 0.1.0). All that Hubzilla has is Nomad, an app only available on F-Droid that's a specialised browser for the Web interface, and that has last seen a new version almost five years ago. (streams) has nothing, Forte even less because it's so new and bleeding-edge that it currently has exactly one private instance with exactly one user.

Truth be told, a mobile app with a fully native mobile UI for (streams) and Forte would be so deep that it'd rival K-9 Mail in complexity, and such an app for Hubzilla would be even more complex.

Friendica supports the Mastodon client API, but no app out there that can be used with Friendica covers more than a small subset of Friendica's features. Basically, unless it's Fedilab, you're forced to use Friendica like Mastodon. In this regard, it'd be completely foolish to add the Mastodon client API to Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte. It wouldn't happen anyway because the devs refuse to have too much proprietary, non-standard Mastodon technology on board.

One could say that the UX is a general issue. This is partially because, again, Friendica was geared towards the desktop almost one and a half decades ago with a Web UI designed by a protocol developer. At least, its UI has taken some cues from Misskey apparently.

Hubzilla's only remaining theme was dolled up this year with more colour configuration options, but otherwise, its only available theme and therefore its entire UX is stuck in 2012 when it was still named Red. New third-party themes are still in development. And while (streams) got a brand-new, fresh theme (appropriately named Fresh) which Forte inherited, it isn't modelled in the style of a 2024 mobile app either.

It certainly doesn't help that Friendica is a very complex piece of software. Forte is more complex. (streams) is another bit more complex. and Hubzilla is the most complex one of the four by far and, while technologically still more advanced than most of the Fediverse, stuck in 2012 in other UX-related things. In addition, Hubzilla is the only one of the four where you have to turn ActivityPub support on, and finding that "switch" is anything but straight-forward.

What doesn't help either is people's expectations. I'd say that people escaping from Facebook might get used to Friendica without too many problems, probably more easily than Mastodon which works entirely differently.

But what most people coming to the Fediverse are looking for is Twitter. Or something as close to Twitter as possible. You see it in the many Mastodonians who keep using Mastodon like Twitter.

Bluesky is an all-out, 1:1 clone of Twitter from about ten years ago, all the way to appearing to be (and actually mostly being) a centralised, monolithic silo just like Twitter.

Mastodon already repels people escaping from 𝕏 by both not really looking and feeling like Twitter and the prospect of having to choose an instance (which is FUD because the official app railroads newbies to mastodon.social). The millions who joined two years ago only joined because the vast majority of them were basically "told" that Mastodon, and therefore the Fediverse, is only one website: mastodon.social. Or mas.to. Or mstdn.social. You get the point, I guess.

Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte aren't Twitter clones. They don't aim to be just like Twitter with all its shortcomings included. They aim to be sort of like Facebook, but better, with extra features and with Facebook's shortcomings removed. Facebook looks, feels and works nothing like 𝕏. It never has. And so, these four are about as far away from being anything like 𝕏 as they could possibly be. And that's by design.

But it isn't user-friendly to those who are looking for the closest thing to the official 𝕏 mobile app.

CC: @mekka okereke :verified: @Jiří Fiala Total Landscaping @Madeleine Morris

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Onboarding #Moderation #UI #UX

@Ch M[ae][iy]e?r

Die Misskey-Familie ist am leistungsfähigsten, aber stark fragmentiert. Firefish und Calkey sind "tot"?

Firefish ist Calckey. Oder war es.

Ich versuche mal, die Geschichte nachzuzeichnen:

Calckey entstand, indem Kainoa Kanter einen Soft-Fork von Misskey angelegt hat. Damals war es noch üblich, daß jeder Forkey einen Namen mit "-key" am Ende hat (FoundKey, Meisskey, Tanukey etc.).

Das war im Grunde immer ein Soloprojekt. Es gab noch ein paar Extra-Entwickler. Aber: Nur Kainoa durfte in den Release-Code einpflegen und neue Versionen rausbringen, außerdem gehörten Kainoa die Domain der Website, die Domain des Code-Repository und die Domain der Leuchtturminstanz, die auch nur Kainoa administrierte.

Anfang 2023, eigentlich war Akkoma gerade der heiße Scheiß, schob ein einzelner Calckey-Fan mit massiver Werbung einen Calckey-Hype an. Weil sich die Leute reihenweise auf Calckey stürzten, kam der Gedanke auf, für ein so populäres Projekt ist "Calckey" eigentlich ein doofer Name. Also wurde Calckey in Firefish umbenannt.

Im Oktober 2023 ist Kainoa dann ziemlich komplett von der Bildfläche verschwunden, jedenfalls komplett aus dem Fediverse. Monatelang überhaupt gar nichts. Zu dem Zeitpunkt war Firefish noch einigermaßen synchron mit Misskey, das auf Version 12 war.

Zwischenzeitlich ging Misskey auf Version 13, dann auf Version 14. Aber Firefish zog nicht nach, weil Kainoa nicht da war. Die anderen Devs konnten Patches einreichen, aber nur Kainoa durfte die in den Produktivcode einpflegen.

Anfang 2024 war Firefish allmählich kritisch veraltet. Nicht nur das, sondern die Leuchtturminstanz, die mit Abstand größte Instanz kackte komplett ab und funktionierte überhaupt nicht mehr. Außer Kainoa konnte sich da aber niemand drum kümmern.

An diesem Punkt wurde Firefish für tot erklärt.

Leute sprangen reihenweise ab. Ganze Instanzen migrierten von Firefish zu Sharkey, einem anderen, jüngeren Misskey-Soft-Fork, der vor allem aktueller und aktiv gepflegt war. Ganze Firefish-Instanzen wurden auf Sharkey umgestellt.

Meines Wissens waren es die anderen Firefish-Entwickler, die das sinkende Schiff verließen. Sie forkten Firefish zu Iceshrimp, um zumindest ein paar Firefish-Features behalten zu können. Es war ein Hard Fork, weil sie eh nicht damit rechneten, daß mit Firefish noch irgendwas passiert. Und sie haben Iceshrimp praktisch unmittelbar nach den Fork nach Misskey rebaset, um den "Unterbau" vom asbach-uralten Misskey 12 auf Misskey 14 hochziehen zu können.

Im Frühjahr ist Kainoa wieder aufgetaucht. Der Grund für die Auszeit war ein Abschluß und ein Jobeinstieg. Und jetzt sollte es mit Firefish weitergehen. Nur war vom alten Firefish nicht mehr viel übrig. Und wohl erst jetzt erfuhr Kainoa, daß alle anderen Entwickler abgesprungen waren und nicht gedachten zurückzukehren.

Letztlich gab Kainoa den Quellcode an eine neue Entwicklerin ab, Naskya. Aber nur den Code. Die drei Domains mitsamt dranhängenden Websites zu übertragen, war wohl zuviel Aufwand. Kainoa hat alle drei abgeschaltet, weshalb die meisten Leute glauben, Firefish sei tot, weil die ganzen alten Weblinks nicht mehr funktionieren.

Naskya hat vorher den Quellcode auf ein neues Repository gesichert. Das aktuelle Firefish ist also rein technisch gesprochen ein Fork des alten Firefish unter demselben Namen. Außerdem hat Naskya eine neue Leuchtturminstanz gestartet auf einer Unterdomain des Repository.

Letzten Monat hat sie dann bekanntgegeben, daß es viel zuviel Aufwand ist, Firefish ganz alleine zu pflegen, und Hilfe hat sie ja keine. So kann sie das unmöglich weiterführen. Also hat sie die Weiterentwicklung von Firefish gestoppt. Es wird jetzt nur noch gewartet und auch das nur bis Jahresende, dann ist mit Entwicklung Schluß. Und im Februar 2025 werden Code-Repository und Leuchtturminstanz abgeschaltet.

Gibt es da irgendwelche Tendenzen, das zu Einen?

Absolut nicht.

Im allgemeinen sind Forkeys, die direkt von Misskey geforkt wurden, entstanden, um mehr Features an Misskey dranzukleben. So auch Calckey.

Die Idee hinter Sharkey war wohl quasi, den ultimativen Forkey zu bauen. Sharkey ist ein Misskey-Soft-Fork, wo teilweise Sachen aus Calckey/Firefish drangebaut wurden und zusätzlich noch Eigengezüchtetes.

Iceshrimp startete als der Versuch, einen stabilen Ersatz für Firefish zu haben. Es wurde von Firefish hartgeforkt, dann zwecks Aktualisierung der Basis auf das viel aktuellere Misskey rebaset. Dann hat man gemerkt, daß viele Probleme von Misskey selbst geerbt worden waren und es zu aufwendig wäre, die zu flicken. Ich meine, sonst hätte Firefish selbst das gemacht, sonst hätte Sharkey das gemacht oder wer auch immer. Also haben die Entwickler Iceshrimp auf Wartung gesetzt, die Weiterentwicklung komplett gestoppt und sich drangesetzt, das ganze Iceshrimp von Grund auf neu zu schreiben. Und zwar nicht mehr in TypeScript und Node.js, weil JavaScript für Serveranwendungen Käse ist, sondern in C#.

Zwischenzeitlich ist von Iceshrimp Catodon geforkt worden. Das hat wieder einen anderen Fokus, und zwar will es ein Forkey für Mastodon-Umsteiger sein. Mit einem ähnlichen Featuresatz wie Mastodon, also mit viel Firefish- und sogar Misskey-Klimbim rausgeschmissen und mit Mastodons Standard-Weboberfläche. Catodons Entwicklung ist meines Wissens auch gestoppt, ich glaube, die warten darauf, daß Iceshrimp.NET fertig wird, damit sie Catodon darauf rebasen können.

Dann gibt's noch CherryPick, einen japanischen Sharkey-Fork. Der hat sich zum Ziel gesetzt, die Macken, die das völlig überzüchtete Sharkey hat, auszubügeln. Das ist wohl zu großen Teilen auch schon gelungen. Schätze, die CherryPick-Entwickler haben es auch geschafft, Sharkeys legendär grottenschlechte Mastodon-API-Implementation durch die neue zu ersetzen, auf die die Sharkey-Entwickler schon ewig warten.

Markdown (Fett, Links, unterstrichen), keine Zeichenbegrenzung und flexiblere Umfragen. Sonst noch was wichtiges?

Markdown geht bei Misskey und den Forkeys noch weiter.

Zeichenbegrenzung haben sie alle, nur nicht auf 500 Zeichen. Je nach Projekt hast du 3000 hartgecodete Zeichen (Misskey) oder ein paar tausend, aber durch den Admin einstellbar.

(Fast) ganz ohne Zeichenbegrenzung sind nur die Sachen von Mike Macgirvin, also Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) und das wohl noch experimentelle noch gar nicht richtig gestartete Forte. Die letzteren beiden haben nur eine durch die Serverdatenbank bedingte Zeichenbegrenzung von über 24.000.000 Zeichen.

CC: @crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Sharkey #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp.NET #Catodon #CherryPick #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte

@everton137 You mean two applications communicating with one another without any common language?

No chance. No way, no how.

Both sides always require one common language to communicate with each other.

Maybe not at this stage, but could different protocols be adapted for that?

That'd basically require at least one protocol to adopt another protocol wholly. Like, ActivityPub would have to include the AT protocol's whole set of communication standards and features.

But if ActivityPub has it, that doesn't mean Mastodon automatically has it, too. Mastodon would have to implement all this in addition to ActivityPub implementing it.

So. Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

Of all Fediverse projects, Mastodon has the worst track record of making itself compatible with anything that isn't Mastodon. It is largely developed like it was the whole Fediverse, without any regard for external compatibility.

And if Mastodon doesn't give a damn for being sufficiently compatible with other actual Fediverse projects and keeps introducing proprietary, non-ActivityPub-standard technology, why should it make itself compatible with something that doesn't have ActivityPub implemented in the first place and never will?

If you don't want bridges, the only solution is to use something that "speaks multiple languages" itself.

Step 1: Say goodbye to the comfort of fully featured phone apps. Embrace the Web interface.

Step 2: Get a Friendica account. Don't worry, it's in the Fediverse. It has been around for five and a half years longer than Mastodon, and it has been continuously fully connected to Mastodon since Mastodon's own launch. Friendica was created with the goal of connecting to everything out there and then some. Until recently, this included Twitter, for a short while in the early 2010s, this even included Facebook. And now this includes Bluesky.

Step 3: Friendica's Bluesky integration works the same as its Twitter and Facebook integrations. It isn't true federation, it's more of an integration of another communications system. So you need an account there. Which means that, yes, I can't help it, you'll need a Bluesky account.

Step 4: Integrate that Bluesky account into your Friendica account.

Result: You can use Friendica to follow just about everyone in the ActivityPub-based Fediverse and just about everyone on Bluesky, connected to the bridge or not, and without the hassle of bridging.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Interoperability #Fediverse #Mastodon #Bluesky #Friendica